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Real Intent -- an inspirational new group blog

A Comfortable Dead Watch

My eyes darted across my dresser one last time as I rubbed frantically at my left wrist. Where was it?! I could not leave without it, but the clock on the wall was fairly shouting that I was going to break my word if I did not go right then. I would have to choose between wearing a watch and being on time. I set my teeth and left watchless.

Today's post by Bonnie.

Visit.  Read some more posts.  Be inspired.

On being forever broken

I work very hard at trying to be positive.  At looking for good and for hope.

Often, I am certain, I annoy those closest to me by seeing positive things that may not be there. I often focus on the trends that are rising or improving, in myself and in others, in reasons to be positive. 

When I'm sick I try not to burden others with it.  Usually, with a little medicine and some rest, it will pass.  Sometimes it doesn't (ok, I admit, it took me almost three years to go in to see someone about an inflamed rotator cuff.   It took less than a week of following the advice I got for it to go away).

It that regard I have to admit that I also see the negative.  I am not unaware that there are counter efforts.  I see my own failings and hear them.

That is, because, in my heart I am certain that I am permanently broken.

Some of that is real.  When I heard in grief groups that the pain of the loss of a child stays with you forever, it did not really sink in.  You cope and you recover, but the loss remains.  My three girls, Jessica, Courtney and Robin are with me in the change of the seasons and in every evolution of my life.

Some of that is just a personal failing because I can not improve fast enough, understand quickly enough, meet other's needs well enough, be enough.  Part of that is multitasking, as I think through and put things together for work in my mind. I often spend an hour or two before work fitting things together in my mind.

Some of that is a lack of aptitude, though I am getting better at mechanical things with practice.  So many areas of my life I lack aptitude.

Some of that is wasting time with reading or television equivalents (more reading -- I admit, I read essays and on-line material instead of watching television) or games.  I'm probably consuming about ten hours a week on that sort of thing, in recreation that I really do not need.

But much of it is that we are all broken, which is why we all need Christ.  Without him we are forever broken.  But with him, our hope is not in vain.  Our sorrow is not forever.  The negative can be overcome.

By and of myself I am nothing.  But in Christ I have hope that does not fail.  Forever.

On hearing different things from the Spirit

There is an old joke.

If four people read the same scripture without the help of the Spirit, they will get four different interpretations.

If four people read the same scripture with the help of the Spirit, they will get five different interpretations.

The glimmer of truth behind the joke is that if the scriptures are meant to be likened or applied to ourselves, and each of us is different, God will give each of us a gloss that fits the scripture to our needs and lives.

That is much like my asking for a google map to Plano from Dallas and you asking for a google map to Plano from Fort Worth.  Each of us will be getting a map from the same source, and each of us will have the same destination, yet each of us will get a different map.

In addition, there may or may not be a deeper truth (the fifth interpretation) that applies and that we can learn together and share together.

I try to keep this in mind when I realize that other people are getting other messages from the Spirit of God.  They have different needs, directions, intermediate goals and lives than I have.  Of course they might well hear different things.

Of course, like the new Apple IOS ^ map to Mordor, they just might be getting the wrong message too -- or I might.

My not quite absence from the Bloggernacle

Some of you are a part of the Boggernacle and you may have noticed I'm not commenting as much as I used to.

 Part of that is because things have been very busy. But part of that is that my handle and my e-mail address trigger spam filters all over.

Thanks to some people at FMH, I discovered why. Someone has been, err, "kind enough" to post for me, using terms and links that generate spam filter captures (when I've been lucky) or intervention by moderators.

As a result, both my handle/name and my e-mail address have become linked in filters.

 I've done two things.

First, come up with a different e-mail address and dropped my handle.

Second, I have somewhat decided to stop posting, at least for a while, at sites that do not require validation of ID -- something I rather dislike (it is just one more hurdle for posting). But I'm not fond of finding out that my name has become linked with racist slurs and foul, Joycian, language.

Also, I have been doing is linking to posts I really like in my facebook account. Posts such as http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2012/09/bmgd-37-3-nephi-8-11/ which give me a replacement for the Sunday School lessons I miss due to my calling I've been calling out in gratitude weekly.

I'm still working on what to do next. But if you've missed me, don't assume RAEBNC applies -- I'm just not getting through -- and it is not your fault. You didn't cause it, you don't control it, and I'm not sure there is anything I can do about the troll I offended.

At least it gives me more time to walk the dog. ;)

Miscellaneous updates

Blogroll Updates

I've been going through my bloggernacle blogroll, deleting everyone that no longer links back to my site or that is completely dead.  If I've deleted you and you think it is a mistake, contact me.

A few blogs I link to are now closed, to me as well. I'll delete them next if I do not work through the permissions thing.

Blogging Updates

I am going to step back a little from blogging.

Robin

Ah, I still miss you.  Most of what I had to say I said on Facebook.

Prior Posts

The one on mediation today, managed to change its update.  I'm not sure what is up with the code I used.  However, the correct link is LawComix: If Jack in the Box franchised Mediation Centers: Scribble-in-Law Archive

This is the link that I had before, have not the slightest idea why it updated to the currently displayed one.

I'm deleting the post that was there before.

Other

My oldest daughter's wedding, getting through the anniversary of Robin's death, Rachel starting at a school with help for her specific disabilities, and getting a dog (hey, first time I have had a dog for me, sot to speak), that has all occurred in real time, on Facebook. 

Grief

I realize they say it never ends, but the reality is, it never ends, only grows more etched by time.

I am still working out what that really means.

Following the advice of Brigham Young

When I was first at BYU, Spencer W. Kimball gave a talk that stayed with me ever since.

He worked off Brigham Young's comment "I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for them

selves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security." and implied that blind obedience would lead us straight to hell.

This post reprises that, in the best of ways.

http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2012/08/who-said-that/ reprises it.

 

The post fits well with:

 

The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not “prepared” by “one of our leaders.” However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.

I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: “I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please.” This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof.

On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”

Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: “If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.”

I cite these few quotations, from many that might be given, merely to confirm your good and true opinion that the Church gives to every man his free agency, and admonishes him always to use the reason and good judgment with which God has blessed him.

In the advocacy of this principle leaders of the Church not only join congregations in singing but quote frequently the following:

“Know this, that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be,
For this eternal truth is given
That God will force no man to heaven.”

Again I thank you for your manifest friendliness and for your expressed willingness to cooperate in every way to establish good will and harmony among the people with whom we are jointly laboring to bring brotherhood and tolerance.

Faithfully yours,

Geo. Albert Smith [signed]

This letter can be found in the George A. Smith Papers (Manuscript no. 36, Box 63-8A), Special Collections, Marriott Library, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah. More detailed information on this topic can be found in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19:1 (Spring 1986), 35-39.

Love and Hate

"love the sinner, hate your own sins" -- I like that, since we need to love ourselves and we get more mileage out of getting the beams out of our own eyes.

Fits with the LDS meme "don't judge me because I sin differently from you."

The final (word on) prophecy

By: Stephen Marsh

August 9, 2012

So, what do we know about prophets?  What is the final word on prophecy?

So far, in previous posts I have covered:

• What they will tell us.
• How to listen to them, a typography of the things they say.
• Understanding the themes that are each prophet’s mission.
• How to become a prophet. [Scroll down]

This post is on how prophets prophesy and how the word of God is transmitted from God to man by prophets.  The final word, so to speak, on prophecy.

Some context — prophets in the scriptures

There is the classic, prophet in the mode of Moses version “And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend” — one that we are told, over and over again is atypical for a prophet and which made Moses special.

More normative are events such as when Peter had his vision that led to gentiles being accepted as members of the Church. Peter was faced with an issue, there had been back and forth, there was a policy in place (no gentiles), he had a vision, and then they had to work out what it meant and the full implications (circumcision not required after all).  That was a process that involved several different levels of revelation, follow-up, clarification and focusing.

Interestingly enough, his first response to the voice of God was to disagree with it “not so.”
Even more common seems to be events such as found in Luke 24:17-21ff.   The apostles had been told things by Christ himself (or had read the scriptures), completely failed to understand them, pondered them, and eventually found enlightenment.

Or Phillip and the Eunuch, where Phillip is told to go to a place, but thereafter works from inspiration.

The pattern

The general pattern is that there is a problem, God speaks, men do not understand, the inspiration is clarified, then they have to work out the implications on their own, with more struggle and concentration on the issue.  Without the reason to face the issue, it seems rare for God to speak (e.g. it went a while for gentiles to be allowed to be baptized, until there was an active reason.  Circumcision issues took some time to work out).

What is striking about many examples is that the prophet involved starts off saying “no” or going in the other direction (Saul of Tarsus anyone?).  God speaks, and like with Jonah, encounters resistance.  There is revelation, but the meaning of it still has to be worked out and developed.

More modern examples

We have some more modern discussions, since Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and others talked about the process.  They talked about how they, like the apostles, were limited in their understanding of God’s words by the weaknesses of their language, their knowledge and their context.  God may be speaking, but they were the ones listening.

Further, they engaged in the process of refining what they understood and what it meant.  Revelation would often go through drafts as they worked out just what it meant, prayed and pondered about it.

What that means for us

First, a preface, so to speak, then specifics.

In preface, I would note that we have a huge administrative burden in the Church and that we have a competing chorus of voices on almost every issue and many, many issues.  It is easy to think that there is an issue or a problem, it is (a) the most important, (b) there is only one side, and (c) there is nothing else any where near as important.  I suspect that not more than 4-5 people in each stake feel that way on a monthly basis.  With 2946 stakes at the end of 2011, that is probably not more than ten thousand people a month who have something they want to say.

Specifics

• Generally, you should expect each prophet to work with their theme.  Historically, that has been true, though Spencer W. Kimball seemed to pick up new themes every time he almost died.
• Generally, you should expect prophets, seers and revelators (such as the first quorum of the 70) to be very engaged in the day to day administrative revelation related tasks of the Church — calling new bishops, new stake presidents, new mission presidents and dealing with related issues.  Over 350 missions, with each president serving three years, means over 100 mission presidents to call and train each year.  350+ to supervise.  I would not be surprised if there were a thousand stake presidency members (presidents and counselors) to call and train each year (that is only about 300 presidencies a year or about 10% a year, it is probably more).
• Generally, you should expect refinement once there is revelation.  I know, you would think that if Christ himself were talking to Peter or John, face to face, day to day, for more than a year, they would get the point without needing refinement, but we are so modern, we probably don’t need as much time, feedback, exposure or refinement?  Maybe not.  We might even need more.  I think it is worthwhile to keep Peter and Paul and their trials and conflicts well in mind when thinking about prophets and the transmission of the word of God to us.
• Generally, you can move prophets to action by moving God.  There is a well documented methodology for it.
• Expect to start off not completely clear on what God is saying or what the important parts are.

What do you think?  Is there something I have missed on what we should expect?

My Wheat and Tares Proposal about an on-line edition of the Ensign

Six ways to bring the Ensign Magazine into the 21st Century

By: Stephen Marsh

July 27, 2012

There has been a lot of talk about having more meat, more depth, yet not excluding people nor rendering church publications less accessible.  So, why not have an expanded version of the Ensign on-line to provide more depth, and to have an on-line presence worthy of the modern world?

After all, the church is working on an app, at least one for tablets, if not phones.  So starting with that, not just an app for the same content, but what if there was real meat put on-line to expand the Ensign every month, to make real use of the potential of an on-line venue?
If there was, I’d suggest that the following things could go in the on-line addition to expand the material that is in the print edition, and to provide substance — six things:

• Some history (articles along the lines of Margaret Blair Young’s By Common Consent post on Jane Manning James or otherwise — real, in depth history)
• some expanded gospel doctrine lessons (along the lines of the series of Gospel Doctrine notes Julie Smith has been posting at Times & Seasons — real, solid, in depth expansion of the lesson material)
• a couple historical sermons in their complete text (instead of excerpts as we get in the “Teachings of” we could have two worthwhile sermons from history).
• a policy/practice reminder — but more formal/structured than the print edition versions  along the lines of the yearly or so article on how mental illness is not sin and is cured by doctors, not faith; — articles such as:
  • how failure to pay child support [or taxes, etc.] renders someone unable to get a temple recommend;
  • how to deal with verbal abuse;
  • how if there is violence in the home you need to flee the situation in most cases;
  • how the Church 12 step program works;
  • how depression related suicide is the result of illness, not moral weakness;
  • how … (you get the idea — and can probably suggest topics).
• “I have a question” — bring back the old column.
• A forum for discussions of the additional material.

What would you like to have added to the Ensign on a monthly basis — especially if page count was no longer an issue (as would be the case with an on-line edition)?
Do you think the idea of more depth, in a centralized location, is a good idea to draw people into a deeper approach to the gospel or do you think it wouldn’t be worth the effort?
Would you submit an article if there was a broader and deeper Ensign available?

In the World You Shall Have Tribulation

But I don’t think God gives us trials. He doesn’t have to. This life is set up that we will naturally encounter plenty without needing any extra helpings from Him.

Read the entire article.  Just click on the linked text to get there.

We need to remember that life is not about comfort, and conversion is not about ease (link to another great essay).

Donations worth making

Ok, I believe in limits, and my donations are not your donations, but if you wonder what I think is worth donating to this week ...

• HIV Fundraising
• Peace and Collaborative Studies Network
• Feminist Mormon Housewives (donate button is missing?!)
• Dallas Museum of Arts.

Otherwise, see my Wheat and Tares blog post on limits and living with them as they relate to the personal themes of religious leaders.

Robin, I miss you.

 Robin, I miss you. There is no place on earth I can find heaven.

Just stop it ...

That is a message to myself.  I've just survived another 4th of July, another year of transposed emotions and dates.  Another year without Robin.  Closing on another anniversary of when I started what is now called a blog in September of 1997.

I've decided to rededicate myself to not being cranky.  To giving people the benefit of the doubt and following the advice to "stop it" from conference.

This topic of judging others could actually be taught in a two word sermon," he said. "When it comes to hating, gossiping, ignoring,ridiculing, holding grudges or wanting to cause harm — please apply the following: Stop it!"

That is good advice.

I used to read Alma, Chapter 5, and apply it to myself.  It is a grand and glorious call to repentance.

Most recently I've had call to reflect how each of us is both like Nephi and like his brother Lemuel.

Actually, the other one says something that might have been perfectly true and honest:
“The Lord maketh no such thing known to us.” 

If Nephi and Lehi assumed everyone could have a vision like the ones they had, and if Laman and Lemuel simply weren’t visionary people (like the VAST majority of people who have lived and live now) . . . 

We judge people so easily when we have so little information from which to reach our conclusions. I have had some amazing spiritual experiences, but, to this point in my life, I also can say honestly that, “The Lord (so far) maketh no such thing known unto me (in that manner).” Therefore, I would say I’m a combination of Nephi and Laman in a very real way. 

That is well worth pondering.

I don't have advice for anyone else right now, just myself.

I need to take today, take the gift of another year, and do something good, something kind, something patient.  I need not to return harshness, but to seek Christ again, to turn my heart.



I have a long way to go.  I'm afraid that I have not made the progress I should have made, but I hope that I can, this year, embrace the advice to just stop it and instead embrace life.

But I am grateful for another year.
 

Misc. Comments about FARMS, etc., from around the Bloggernacle

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2012/07/apologetic-activism-occupy-your-own-self/

My response was eaten by the spam filter, eventually released (thanks guys!). 

All I said was that I generally agree with the author of the essay, but because such appeals tend to get lost in the background noise.  Otherwise, I was lost by the comment that  http://www.followtheprophet.net/ is beyond the pale and "King Put" references.  I feel as if I'm in a different world.

Guest Post: Why I Find Developments at the Maxwell Institute Concerning

The comments are as interesting as the essay, though not, in all cases, as thoughtful or respectful.

The Odd Couple: Story and Community

"a fatal error or a brilliant accident is yet to be seen"

Roslyn Welch is an interesting writer.   Many of the comments seem to miss the point.  The level of hostility is interesting.

What the heck is going on with the Maxwell Institute?

• http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=4467
• http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=4481
• A Change Would Do You Good

A series of essays addressing the Maxwell Institute/FARMS.  The author sides with those who fired Peterson, but provides a lot of information.

An Acceptable Prejudice?

On anti-LDS/Mormon prejudice in academic circles and how well accepted it is.  I think it is important for understanding FARMS reception outside of LDS circles.

Oudenos

Finally, revisiting Nibley, in context and out of context. Part of the problem with the essay is how hostile it is to many people's citations to Nibley.  That rubs off, I think without meaning to, on all sorts of things as the comments show.

Still: "Nibley himself pointed to the constant need for reappraisal of academic work" -- including his own.  The "post was about the (ab)use of Nibley, not Nibley himself or his work."  I think most of the fire the post draws comes from the title of the post.

That is my round-up for the week.  I mention Nibley because FARMS, in part, started with copies of essays of Nibley's that had gone out of print, including the unmatched Bird Island essay.

More on tiny houses

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Affirmative Action Follies and truths

Wherein I don't take the usual approach in such a discussion.

My daughter was four years, varsity, on the rifle team in high school.  In her junior year, a number of guys in the high school ROTC program started complaining about how a girl had stolen a spot from a deserving guy by means of affirmative action.

One of them made the mistake of saying so in front of the colonel, who was pretty laid back, all in all.  The colonel marched him 25' in one direction and my daughter 25' in the other and then, standing in the middle, rather loudly explained to the young man that my daughter was on the team because at that distance she could reliably shoot the pupil out of his eye prone, kneeling or standing.  The young man could not even see a pupil at 50' and ... Well, the grousing stopped.

But you will discover similar follies, and many companies encourage them.  Recently I know an about to graduate engineer who interviewed with a company.  They had announced they were hiring five people, four open slots and one dedicated to hiring a female engineer.  The two female candidates were rather rudely treated by the male candidates.  One of them took the time to chat up secretaries and others, having arrived early.

She discovered that the company makes that announcement every year, and has for some time.  In fifty years they have never hired a female engineer.  They only hire female secretaries and janitorial staff.  They never hire as many people as they say they are hiring either. 

Why would they say otherwise?  I know from friends in HR and headhunting that there are two reasons for that sort of behavior.

First, if you announce a larger set of openings, you get better quality applicants, people who are very qualified, but who don't want to waste their time applying if the hiring slots are few.

Second, if you announce affirmative action goals, the people you do not hire are not upset with you, they blame the "Black guy" or "the Girl" for stealing their job and just by having stated affirmative action goals you will get a lot less negative trouble from the job applicants you did not hire.

If you've ever wondered about Justice Clarence Thomas and his hostility towards affirmative action, it stems from experiences like that, combined with the fact that when he accomplished anything people would credit it not to his ability, but to affirmative action (consider his admission to Yale law school where he was in the top half of the class -- how often have you heard that he only got into Yale because of affirmative action?  Yet, statistically, Blacks perform below the statistical indicators.  Which means, more likely than not, if he was in the top half at Yale, his LSAT/grades on his application put him in the top 25% or so of those who were admitted).

Reprising, that company, referred to above, they did not hire "a Girl" this time either.  They just outsourced some abuse and hostility to the female applicants.  Last I heard, both of the female engineering students they interviewed are still looking for work.  Still getting a good deal of hostility from male engineers too, since they are sure that the "girls" are not working as hard and having an easy time of the job market compared to the "deserving guys."

Oh, I'll bet that none of the grousers can shoot the pupil out of someone's eye at 50' either.  Bet they would complain about a "girl" being on the rifle team if they tried to get on and failed.

What makes arguments about women and the priesthood flawed.

Many of the arguments people put out in favor of women and the priesthood resolve to sounding like "I just want the change to exercise unrighteous dominion too." (I am not saying that they are making that argument, I'm saying that they sound like that argument).


For example when people write about wanting to exercise power or influence, they will trigger the following thoughts:

No ^apower or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the ^bpriesthood, only by ^cpersuasion, by ^dlong-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

So when someone writes that they feel powerless without the Priesthood, and want to be able to exert power and influence, they will have that scripture sounding in the echo chamber of the minds of those who hear them. If you state that you want the priesthood to exercise power and influence, you've just stated that you (in accord with D&C 121) are not entitled to it, e.g.:

to gratify our ^cpride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or ^ddominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men,

The problem is that not only do you need to make an argument that is not saying that, you need to make an argument that does not sound like that either.  If your argument sounds like that is what you want (regardless of what you mean), you immediately create that semantic contamination of your argument or reasons.

The same is true of "I serve enough, I just want to serve in a better scope."  That sounds like "I just want to be important."  Elder deJager of the 70 had as his first calling putting up the books after Sacrament.  At the time he was a relatively important executive with a large company.  His response was not "I want a more important job."  Instead, he served with diligence. 



Christ washed the apostles feet to drive hope the point that it is about service, being the servant of all, rather than about being important.  If you are going to make any argument about the place where you serve rather than serving more, you will face serious semantic contamination and echos of pride in the semantic contamination you create.

The same comes when blessing babies comes up.  Already leaders are being counseled not to push fathers aside when it comes to ordaining sons or blessing babies, about taking steps to make sure men are involved and can be allowed to participate (the reference to battlefield promotions in the recent conference was part of a call not to shunt fathers aside).

That sounds very much like "I want to push men aside and take over."  Now, even when the need or desire is "I just want to participate" or "I hate being excluded" it is very easy to get the message contaminated with the one "I am pushing others aside and alienating them."

The same is true of the "I deserve it" and "I should be part of the hierarchy" argument.  Something that Hopwood and other litigation has pointed out is that much of affirmative action consists of taking people from privileged backgrounds and giving them precedence over people from trailer parks.  That the lead plaintiff from Hopwood was a white woman from a trailer park who was being excluded ... or that every time class issues are introduced to go with other affirmative action steps (the idea being that those from poor and lower class backgrounds are obviously suffering more of the effects of discrimination than those who are wealthy ...).

Consider the first "woman of color" to teach at Harvard Law School.  Blond, blue eyed ....  Now running for the senate in a state near you.  There is a huge issue where it appears to be more of a class struggle and one that ignores and insults the female members of general boards who are in some sort of quasi general authority status.

Combining an insult with something that rings of class warfare will, again, create unpleasant echos.  Especially since the Church continually has to war with class issues.  I still remember in the LDS Serviceman's stake in Germany when a general authority said he had interviewed every worthy high priest in the stake.  Turned out that the list he had been given was only of officers who were high priests.  No matter how otherwise worthy a man was, if he was enlisted, he wasn't truly "worthy."

All of that said, am I coming to a conclusion on the arguments, the conclusions or the future?

No.  Just because someone makes a bad argument, or a good argument that sounds like a bad one and is easily confused for one, does not mean that the position they are taking is a bad position.

So, what am I saying?

I am saying that if you want to make arguments, provide analysis, or be persuasive, you need to do the following:

1. Avoid arguments that are contaminated by sounding like other arguments.  There are some very specific claims, arguments and approaches that sound very, very much like arguments that are (to the listeners) self-refuting (see the above).  i.e. structure your arguments to clearly not be the contaminated ones, but instead to be saying the alternative (e.g. "I don't want to push men aside, but I want to be able to participate).
2. Avoid arguments that are basically insults or expressions of pride (e.g. "I serve more than I feel like, but I would rather be in control and have the chance to really exercise my abilities than do something like pick up the song books.").
3. Avoid arguments that show an ignorance of culture and structure.  (e.g. denying the existence of female board members vs. discussing that the status and existence of female board members does not have meaning for people outside of Utah).
4. Start discussions in places where everyone is in accord.  E.g. President Hinkley used to stress that the Church needed more leadership and participation from the women in the Church and a common problem that has been with us is men who misunderstand the priesthood and insist that women should not ever exercise any leadership or participation on an equal basis, to the extent of banning women from giving prayers in Sacrament meetings.  A way to move forward on the goal and overcome the problem is ....

Anyway, until things are discussed in those terms, and in those ways, most of the discussions contain within them the seeds of their own failures.

One thing I want to see happen is people express their ideas and positions in ways that are not contaminated by sounding like reasons and arguments that resonate as reasons not to give someone a fair audience -- to avoid hearing them.  Too often the debate is carried out in terms that create automatic rejection (kind of like the political candidate who ran on the basis that it was his turn to share in the stream of graft he was certain he had been excluded from).

That at least would get us to a civil and rational place where what people meant to be saying was heard.

Why women want the priesthood -- a poll

Everyone speculates, but at Wheat and Tares we are asking our readers for answers:

• I don't want the priesthood silly -- my husband told me so.
• Of course I want the priesthood -- do I have to have a reason?
• I want equal power and influence, so I need equal priesthood.
• I do not feel as if I am asked to serve enough, I need the priesthood in order to serve more.
• I want the priesthood so that I feel included.  I'm the right social class and have the right professional background, but without the priesthood I'm stuck like all the men who are the wrong social class and won't progress in the leadership.
• I feel disconnected from the Church and my family and the priesthood would help me feel more connected.

I got thinking about what Hawkgrrrl had to say earlier and so I thought I'd just ask.

For reference, this is what she had to say:

While we’re speculating on priesthood, I think a sociological argument can be made that priesthood service ties men to families and makes them feel needed in ways that they otherwise might not.  In Spain, most men would spend their evenings in the bar with other men leaving the women at home to raise the kids, but when they joined the church, they became more family-centric and spent time serving others and supporting their families because it was their priesthood duty.  Women already had a family-centric existence in that culture.  If women also had the priesthood, it would reduce their reliance on men for those things.  A role separation model may be more effective at creating family bonds (creating mutual reliance and respect for each other), improving the way men treat their families and others, and provide more support to children on the whole across large groups of people.  Obviously, that’s more of an 80/20 principle – suitable to 80% of society, but not others.

In this sociological model, both motherhood and priesthood are duties and service provided to others, not gifts God gives to an individuall. But E. Oaks didn’t say that.  It’s my own slightly more palatable spin on what he said.

And, of course: http://www.wheatandtares.org/2010/08/17/mormon-org-faq-women-priesthood/

Christ Washing the Disciples' Feet

Artist	Tintoretto

Obviously her reflections took more than just a simple line on a poll.  I expect that your reflections and real reasons, for or against wanting the priesthood will take more than a simple line.  My thoughts would be influenced by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_washing and by http://bycommonconsent.com/2012/06/07/addenda-female-healing-lorenzo-snow/ but I want your thoughts, not mine.



So, if you are a woman, tell me why you do or do not want the priesthood and why.  I want honest, both pro and con (you can do silly as well, my poll had that as an option, but I'm hoping for more).

Thank you.

Email issues through the years

We first got online as a family with Progidy which offered free time for access to their grief support group for parents who had lost children.  Combined with the off-line tools (which downloaded the message boards and let  you read and respond off-line), it was a source of support and help.

We then picked up GNN which had a local POP (point of presence -- a way to connect with a phone modem without a long distance call) after Juno suddenly became a long distance call from where we were.  GNN got swallowed whole by AOL, and the e-mail accounts all went away.

I have my own domain, which let me use Eudora, until my ISP discontinued my e-mail service because of the the "hope" spam sent to adrr.com.  Hundreds of thousands of spam sent every day to addresses spammers hope existed at adrr.com were effectively acting as a denial of service attack.

But AOL has taken to upgrading itself, automatically sometimes, and when it does that, all the saved e-mail folders disappear. Including all the e-mails saved to my PC.

Which is, needless to say, annoying.  (As an aside, I've used other e-mail clients, use outlook at work, etc.  I can save outlook e-mails by drag and drop into outside folders and keep everything organized and permanently saved there, rather easily -- almost enough for me to consider it at home).

It is enough for me to consider switching to gmail on a permanent basis, especially with the domain name feature.